Season 3, Episode 4: WTF is Crypto?

A little bit of information you may or may not already know about an imaginary currency that may or may not be a good idea

The long-dreaded day has come: We try to tackle a tiny bit of crypto, whatever that means.

What is the occasion for wading into these bro-infested waters? The government changed a rule, so crypto can now creep into our legit retirement investment accounts. Do we care?? Maybe?

As for the “content”, Caitlin makes ridiculous analogies about opening a shell-only currency shop in a beach side village in her to attempt to visualize how a new currency comes into being, and Sara comes out as “crypto curious” and tries to keep it real and balanced.

You will not learn everything you need (want?) to know about imaginary currencies in this episode, but on the other hand, you won’t not learn more than you already don’t know about them. If you’ve been sticking your head in the sand up to this point (ahem, Caitlin), this could be a gentle way to dip your toe in with some company.

Attention: Sara and I have wanted to do an episode about crypto for a really long time, but we want to find someone to talk to about it who isn't in the tank. Like, who's skeptical but isn't so fiery against it, like Caitlin seems to be, but sees both sides. And has a sense of humor. If you're out there and know a lot about it, get in touch. And if anybody listening knows somebody who isn't going to try to sell us anything but has a nuanced understanding, we would love to talk to them!

FYI: When Sara tells Caitlin to listen to one of our previous episodes to remember what a mutual fund is, she’s referring to Season, 1, Episode 5: Like, literally, what is a stock? You should listen to it, too, if you’re feeling a little fuzzy about what exactly a mutual fund is or isn’t.

Another FYI: We did an episode on WTF is a Bank? that helps explain some of the topics we discuss in here - or at least we referred to it, so I’m including it in our show notes so we look really busy.

Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions for Season 3 on our Ask Us page!

We have the social medias!! Here’s our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn.

This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Transcripts for Season 3, Episode 4: WTF is Crypto?

Caitlin [00:00:07] Welcome to women on the verge of a Financial Breakthrough, a podcast where we're figuring out finance. One dumb question at a time. I'm the dummy. Caitlin Meredith, a coach and mediator based in the Bay area.

Sara [00:00:20] And I'm Sara Glakas. I'm an investor, advisor and founder of Black Barn Financial and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which can be found on Meetup and Facebook.

Caitlin [00:00:30] Before we start, do you know a woman who might be on the verge of a financial breakthrough? Will you text her a link to our show and maybe two other friends while you're at it? Also, if you can, please leave us a review. This helps other women on the verge find us and we read all of them and they make us happy. Cry like this one from a listener who said funny, warm, entertaining. I'd listen to them talk about anything. Just happens to be money. Thank you so much. We'll start doing a bunch of episodes about boring stuff just to test you. In the meantime, thank you, thank you. And to all of our listeners. Now let's get started.

Caitlin [00:01:13] Okay, Sara, I have a question for you. What the fuck are ETFs?

Sara [00:01:20] Of ETFs. That's the acronym for exchange traded funds.

Caitlin [00:01:27] Is this something I would have seen before or is this in deep in the weeds?

Sara [00:01:32] It's not really too deep in the weeds. You probably own some ETFs.

Caitlin [00:01:36] How dare you.

Caitlin [00:01:40] Wait, tell me what they are.

Sara [00:01:42] Let me ask you this. Do do you know that you own mutual funds?

Caitlin [00:01:47] I believe that I am invested in a mutual fund because I'm only invested in the, like, Vanguard. Whatever. Total stock market index. Isn't that a mutual fund?

Sara [00:02:00] Okay, there's a lot to unpack here. And then I'm going to go on to.

Caitlin [00:02:03] Should I start listening at season one?

Caitlin [00:02:05] Have I not?

Sara [00:02:08] Please look at our show notes for a link to the episode we recorded about this very subject 2 or 3 years ago.

Caitlin [00:02:16] Yeah. Okay, there we go.

Sara [00:02:19] So a mutual fund and an ETF. They're like cousins. They're very close cousins with each other. Like the word fund in this case just means there's like a basket of investments. So think about a basket.

Caitlin [00:02:31] We were at a market putting things into our shopping cart. I remember this.

Sara [00:02:36] Yeah yeah yeah. So we put a bunch of different companies into the basket. And so instead of an investor needing to buy every single thing that's in the basket, they can buy a piece of the basket, right.

Caitlin [00:02:47] It's like people that buy a cow together and they, they go in on a cow.

Caitlin [00:02:54] She just gave me the biggest. Why do I look like a cow?

Caitlin [00:02:59] Share. You what? Yeah, right. Well, people with deep freezers. No, not that, because that's only cow farm share farm box.

Caitlin [00:03:10] Getting a little bit of each.

Sara [00:03:12] We used to do a cow share when I was growing up. Really? Farm.

Caitlin [00:03:16] You didn't do have cows.

Sara [00:03:18] Well, right. You would have one. You know how big a cow is, right? One big cow can be split between three families that have a big freezer. So you would get like whatever cut of meat. Like they wouldn't all be the same cuts of meat. You'd get like some sirloin and some filets and then like some tongue.

Caitlin [00:03:37] She's giving some weird look now. Okay, so someone has to get the organs right.

Sara [00:03:42] So other cuts of meat that no one knows how to cook. So no. So I'll say.

Caitlin [00:03:46] Like all of that. Right. I know it. It sure is. And it is not anything like an ETF. Good. It's not. No it's not that up. Yeah.

Sara [00:03:59] Oh, where where do I go back to.

Caitlin [00:04:01] So TF and mutual funds are kissing cousins very close. And you go to the market and instead of buying a whole box of Cheerios, you just have the top flap and somebody else is getting there. Like you get pieces of all the different companies together. You get a share of the basket that has all the things in it.

Sara [00:04:21] Right. So instead of buying and selling all of the things in the basket, you're just buying and selling this one piece of the basket, okay. To other investors. So mutual funds I don't know. Kind of the main thing to know about mutual funds is that you can only buy and sell them at the end of the day, after the trading day closes. An exchange traded fund is very, very similar and sometimes exactly the same as a mutual fund. But you can buy and sell that piece of the basket any time during the trading day.

Caitlin [00:04:53] Okay.

Sara [00:04:55] Does that make sense?

Caitlin [00:04:55] I mean, no, but I accept that it's the reality that when you can buy and sell during the trading day and when you can only buy at the end of the day.

Sara [00:05:04] So in this idea of mutual funds and ETFs, these are this is how most investors invest, right? Most people buy shares of a mutual fund or shares of an ETF in order to invest in stocks, bonds. There's something with real estate called a real estate investment trust, which is very similar to a mutual fund for real estate. But like kind of the place where this hasn't really become, like, fully mature is in the cryptocurrency market.

Caitlin [00:05:37] To no credit, I've dreaded the day we had to talk about crypto. I know that it's a theoretical currency. That day to day can have some actual financial value and that for some reason requires tons and tons of warehouses in the middle of nowhere that get very hot and are amazing for the environment. Am I off here again?

Sara [00:06:11] No.

Sara [00:06:11] No, but you're talking about like the the.

Sara [00:06:14] The farms, the server farms.

Sara [00:06:16] Server farms, right. Because it takes an incredible.

Sara [00:06:19] It's like a cow share. It's all goes back to the farm you grew up.

Caitlin [00:06:22] I'm in the Midwest.

Sara [00:06:24] I think like the name of this episode, it's going to be Cow Share. And nobody's gonna have any idea what's in this episode. It all comes back to the cow share.

Caitlin [00:06:35] Okay, so you asked me if I knew what cryptocurrency was I really yet another made up financial system that convinced enough people to invest in it. So it somehow does have value sometimes.

Sara [00:06:49] So that's pretty close, right? So the most famous cryptocurrency is Bitcoin. Okay. Which was invented by a white paper that was published by a person or group of people that no one knows who they are in 2011. So very new right? Yeah. But as you probably know, I mean, you're in the Bay Area, right? Like, people, believe in cryptocurrency. They believe in Bitcoin. They might own it for all different types of purposes. But until just pretty recently, there was no, like, really good way for a regular investor who's used to doing things at Vanguard or Fidelity or Schwab. There was really no way for an investor with that level of experience to kind of conveniently buy and sell Bitcoin.

Caitlin [00:07:44] You had to throw your lot in with that same guy who defrauded everybody.

Sara [00:07:48] Okay, right. You either had to find a place like, Coinbase, which is regulated, or FTX, which famously blew up and stole everybody's money. Right. And there were a lot of places in between. So it was very wild West. Right? Right. If you're going to do it really safely, you have to have a certain level of, I don't know, technological literacy, I guess. But lots of scams. Just kind of like a tricky place to be. But just last week, the SEC, which is the governmental organization that regulates ETFs, the Securities and Exchange Commission, is what SEC stands for. They approve.

Caitlin [00:08:27] I've watched succession. I know what that means.

Sara [00:08:33] So the SEC to badger you today I have no purpose. I don't know what any of these things are. Okay. Go on.

Caitlin [00:08:41] The SEC finally approved.

Sara [00:08:44] The Bitcoin ETF or a group of Bitcoin ETFs okay. So now if you want to buy Bitcoin in your brokerage account or your Roth IRA or something like that, you can choose from any number of these Bitcoin ETFs that were just approved last week. And everybody was very excited about this, right. Because it kind of.

Caitlin [00:09:09] Gave it legitimizes the industry, right?

Sara [00:09:12] It legitimizes the industry. The SEC was really worried about approving a Bitcoin ETF because they think that that market can still be manipulated. Right. Which I guess well it maybe it maybe could be. It's actually it's a relatively large market now. But now just for listeners who are interested in dabbling in cryptocurrency, you could actually do it with a regulated ETF that's been approved by the SEC, in your brokerage account or your IRA or your Roth IRA.

Caitlin [00:09:45] Which I'm assuming doesn't mean you're recommending it. We're not I don't think we're getting to that at this point. But just on a very basic level. Can you help me understand this? So let's say we live in a small village and we use our current currency, which is US dollars. And I only accept at my little shop U.S. dollars. So you want to come in and you want to get some coffee. You want to get some fruit, you come in with your dollars or your sense and you pay for them. Whatever. Then Sara opens a rival shop on the other side of the village, just like, you know what? I'm going to accept shells. That's what I want. Forget your dollars. I don't care that shells. So all the children of the village race around all the beaches, grabbing all the shells, and that becomes to buy things at your shop. They can buy their coffee, their milk, their fruit, whatever, from your shop. And just through that process in this village, the shells sort of take on currency values. Then like.

Sara [00:10:48] Yeah, they become something you can exchange. For stuff at that shop.

Caitlin [00:10:52] But it's invented. They have no intrinsic value. Like a shell is a shell. There's millions upon billions. But because you've decided that that's the only quote unquote currency that you will exchange for your goods, they become valuable. Just Sara said. These are valuable. And you can get that. Now, what you're doing with all those shells, we don't know. And your shop is going to go out of business because the other merchants won't sell you them for shells. Right. So I'll pay for.

Sara [00:11:24] My inventory and shell.

Caitlin [00:11:26] Right. I don't know what the long game is here, but is not crypto a version of that someone was just like. I'm bored with their usual money. I'm going to come up with a whole different kind of money that has no relationship to actual value of something someone could use to buy milk at any other store. I mean, I know now you can pay some places with bitcoin, but I don't understand how you just invent. There's nothing behind it. If all the computers turned off. That money wouldn't exist.

Sara [00:12:05] Yeah, I mean that. Certainly. Like a pretty popular take on crypto.

Caitlin [00:12:11] Like. Right, I don't know, I it.

Sara [00:12:14] Is. Yeah, it's a pretty popular take. It's just like this isn't. I don't know why this is a thang or how it's been a thing for so long. There's no way it's sustainable. People are not going to continue to believe that Bitcoin is valuable. And so therefore it will eventually go to zero. That is a pretty popular take.

Caitlin [00:12:34] Like is it not a very large Ponzi scheme.

Sara [00:12:39] Well, it's I mean I hesitate to use the word Ponzi scheme, right. Like I think what it does rely on is a large enough group of people who think that it's that there's something there. Right there. Some people who are very passionate about Bitcoin. Right. Kind of the underlying thesis is that you have a bunch of computers that are using a bunch of power, paying money to run their computers to solve these algorithms in order to mine Bitcoin out of the blockchain system that it's built on. And that's what gives these Bitcoin value. So. And there's only 20, what, 21 million? There's only 21 million of these Bitcoin that will ever be mined. So if you think about it like instead of putting Bitcoin next to dollars, sometimes it helps me to put bitcoin next to gold, which a lot of the same arguments you just used could be applied to gold.

Caitlin [00:13:47] Right? I get that gold is an arbitrary thing of value and we've talked about that, but it actually exists in the real world. Like there's a physical thing. You could bring it in. Bitcoin is on a computer somewhere.

Sara [00:14:02] It exists in the digital world.

Caitlin [00:14:04] Right?

Sara [00:14:05] Yeah. So you have to believe that the digital world is real and valuable and able to store assets or create assets. Right. But a lot of people do a lot of stuff in the digital world. So for some people, it's not that far to get there. Right? That, oh, this digital currency could have as much or more value value to me in the digital world as gold has in the physical world.

Caitlin [00:14:33] Does it not depend on other people thinking it's valuable so that you could sell it at any time? So if tomorrow everybody woke up and like, that's bullshit. And you have, you spent $100,000 on Bitcoin, you will never get that. That money is nowhere to be felt like if there are no believers in the system anymore. Whereas if I buy $100,000 of shares, the stock market can go up and down. I'm not saying there, obviously there's tons of volatility, but like, how is that not a pyramid scheme?

Sara [00:15:08] I mean, are U.S. dollars are also an idea.

Caitlin [00:15:12] Right. They're an idea and that it's not practical for me to have all the dollar bills for my bank account in my house. There'd be so many, Sara.

Caitlin [00:15:20] It would just be so, so many. You couldn't fit them in this house.

Caitlin [00:15:25] But like in theory, and I know the Silicon Bank, Valley Bank went out of business because everybody tried to cash in, like at any given time. All that we did a whole bank episode, which would be interesting to reference here, but I'm still just not yet like. So if Sesame Street came up with a digital stick, it relies on enough other. Can I use the word suckers to believe in it? Who would pay you for it? And when you run out of suckers, you run out of value.

Sara [00:15:58] Yeah. I mean, I think since since 2011 there have been thousands, millions of similar experiments that people have tried to do with cryptocurrency or other digital assets, creating an ecosystem that is similar to the one that still exists around Bitcoin. And so you have definitely had people lose all of their money in other types of coins that didn't or other types of assets. It didn't take off, they didn't get. They either weren't structured the same way that Bitcoin is or, you know, it was scammy or you didn't get any value from it. But there is something about Bitcoin specifically. And then a few other digital assets that have so far had staying power. How long does a type of currency or an asset need to stay around before more and more people concede that there's something there, that if other people think it's valuable, then it's valuable, like a few decades, a century.

Caitlin [00:17:05] Can I ask you what it's a solution for? What? What is the need for a second form of currency that will operate essentially the same? Like the hope would be that it operates the same as the one we already have. What what problem is it solving?

Sara [00:17:28] I think for purists, it's that you take all of the decisions about how many dollars in the dollar case, who's in charge of the dollar. Well, the US Treasury is right.

Caitlin [00:17:42] Okay.

Sara [00:17:43] And so the US Treasury can print as many dollars as it needs to to fund whatever obligation it needs to, which is unique. You know, the US is unique in the world being able to do that. But Bitcoin is an alternative to that. With Bitcoin there's 21 million bitcoin. No one can turn on a printing press to print more. Whereas in the U.S the amount of dollars that could be created is theoretically infinite. And so that's like from a purists perspective, that's the problem that is solved with Bitcoin specifically. And no one's in charge of it. There's no one and it's decentralized. Right? Right.

Caitlin [00:18:25] Right.

Sara [00:18:26] Because there's just a formula that's in charge of it, right? There's no person or political.

Caitlin [00:18:31] Is it like, a slot machine where it's like, oh, we'll run all these numbers, and when there's three cherries, you get a dollar. Like, I don't get.

Sara [00:18:40] This is way there. There is. It's way outside my my area of expertise. You know, I've been trying to learn about this because in Austin, you know, quite a few people are interested in this space. You know, like, it's it's an asset for techie people. Right. Because it's digital. And then, of course, just because it's like a, get rich quick type of thing for, you know, like the price will spike and make a bunch of people, you know, bitcoin millionaires and then it'll crash. It's like very dramatic. There are a lot of things about it that I don't know. Like don't have a very good analogy to something that we're more used to.

Caitlin [00:19:18] There's no cow share here.

Caitlin [00:19:19] I mean.

Sara [00:19:21] We're not going back to the pure cow share metaphor with Bitcoin. If you had a digital cow and three digital families with three digital freezers, then maybe we'd be onto something.

Caitlin [00:19:35] Okay, if you can't even understand it, but I would like to ask you a really important question, which is, will you describe the wardrobe of the men that you saw at the crypto conference that you went in Austin? And I say men because my belief is that it was like 99% bros at that conference, what were they wearing that was so funny.

Sara [00:19:56] Yeah. So for listeners like, I try to go to South by Southwest every year just to see what people are talking about. And there have been like, definite themes, right? Like when I first started going, it was like the beginning of the crypto theme, and then it kind of moved into like the cannabis theme. Right? And these things like, are very closely related. I feel like with the type of people they attract. Right. Which is I don't. There's all these, like, crazy, like, hype videos of like, like, these are like the the crypto investor or dancer.

Caitlin [00:20:29] So she's got her shoulders up, down.

Sara [00:20:32] Rolling up like in a very shiny suit. Right. Shaved head, goatee Lambo. Right. Like there was an archetype. But now that was before the Bitcoin ETF. Now it's just your.

Caitlin [00:20:50] Mom and pop.

Sara [00:20:51] Any mom and pop can buy bitcoin through a Bitcoin ETF. And they don't have to be part of this like insane wild West use like.

Caitlin [00:21:02] Subculture.

Sara [00:21:03] Type of scene. They can just skip over that part, which I feel sad about. I mean, it was. It was really a scene. It was like 99.9% men and very get rich quick type of vibe, right? So you would, every once in a while run into someone who who really thought that this, you know, is one of the things that can change the world for the better. Right. There are like very passionate people in, in both of those industries. I don't I think it's kind of I think it's interesting because I always kind of come back to I'm one of those people that thinks there's a there there. I don't exactly know what it is, but it's been however many years since this thing was invented. It's still here. People are trying to figure out more ways to use it, and then the underlying technology of blockchain.

Caitlin [00:21:50] And it's not like the music Man, we're just some charismatic leader like Sara at the shell. Shell Shop has determined that this thing that is so esoteric that most people will never understand, it hasn't just tricked. I mean, I.

Sara [00:22:10] I, I mean, Sam Bankman-Fried is in jail like he was a charismatic leader of this movement. Right? A lot of the charismatic leaders ended up in jail because they I mean, they just committed outright fraud. They just stole people's money or Bitcoin or whatever it was. Right. There are a lot of skeptics, right? Like Jamie Dimon from JPMorgan is a very famous hardcore skeptic who thinks it's worth nothing. And then, I don't know, you have kind of people in different parts of the government, different parts of the Treasury who think that there's there's some usefulness here and that people are just still trying to figure out what the usefulness is. I don't know, I think I fall like somewhere in between all of those things. And all of your points are valid. But like, a Ponzi scheme doesn't last for what is what is 2024 -2011? How many years is that? 13?

Caitlin [00:23:04] 13? 20. Would it feel better if I called it a madoff scheme? I mean. I know that. Oh, I just thought of the joke that you say, like, how do you know if somebody is into CrossFit and you don't don't worry.

Sara [00:23:20] They'll tell you.

Caitlin [00:23:21] Yes, exactly. I feel that way with crypto in that whole that like that, it's like little cultish. And I don't actually have people in my life like it's we the people I've been exposed to have been aggressive men that feel like they're trying to sell me something. Yeah, that I'm like, turned down the steroids. Let's, you know, like, it feels pressured. Which, of course leads to my skepticism. But I really do know that there are intelligent, even women that are curious, at least crypto curious or if not in it, too. I'm curious. No, I'm not crypto curious. I'm crypto hostile. I mean, there's nothing like ignorance to really fueled my hostility, so I'm going to just go with that. But, Sara, are you ready to pronounce whether or not you think now a crypto ETF is part of a fully diversified portfolio?

Sara [00:24:21] Oh my gosh, that's so good. I had someone else send me that question the other day. This is what I said. I put cryptocurrency in the same category that I personally put in, like real estate, gold, commodities, like niche, your investments that have their own set of risk reward trade offs and that for people who are into that sort of thing, that a small allocation to something like crypto might be appropriate for people willing to take the risk. Right. So I think the question that, my friend asked me was whether I would recommend it to all my clients. Right. Like, is it you just like a building block, like stocks, bonds, cash. Right. Like, is it a building block like that? I'm not willing to put it in as a building block that deserves a spot in every person's portfolio, like I believe about stocks. Like I believe like, pretty much everyone should have some percentage of stocks in their portfolio with a few exceptions. But I don't feel that way about crypto. But I do think that for certain people who have a certain view of the world and fully acknowledge and accept the risk reward trade off, which is something like you could be down 100% and lose everything.

Caitlin [00:25:41] 100% is a lot of percent.

Sara [00:25:44] It's a lot. It's all of the percents. So you could yeah, you could lose all of the percents or this thing sticks around and increases in value over time. And maybe it can go up 10,000%. Right.

Caitlin [00:25:57] How do those people stay the course.

Sara [00:26:00] Like they just they they just believe that we live in a digital world and there's a place for digital assets. And this is the future. And you just got to get on board.

Caitlin [00:26:11] Even if you don't understand what the hell they're talking about, what is the actual thing you're buying, like?

Sara [00:26:16] Yeah. I mean, usually people buy if they're.

Caitlin [00:26:19] Doing it.

Sara [00:26:19] If they're a proponent of it. They have more than a basic understanding. Hardly anyone. It's like a true, true, true expert. Right. But you have more than a basic understanding and you just accept, like there are some things that you can buy that could lose all of their value. And if that happens, I'll be sad, but I'm not going to let it blow up my portfolio. I mean, so we're maybe like your crypto guys with, like, the steroids and stuff. Like, a lot of people had their entire wealth blown up by the most recent decline in cryptocurrency. Some currencies went to zero and they're never coming back.

Caitlin [00:26:55] Oh, it's not like my index fund where there's a terrible year and I lose money, but then it can build again like.

Sara [00:27:04] It goes right? Not right. It can just. It'll just go away forever.

Caitlin [00:27:09] Okay.

Sara [00:27:10] So Bitcoin hasn't done that yet right. Other digital currencies like Ethereum like they haven't done that yet. But there are lots and lots of smaller ones or newly invented ones that have just evaporated and taking all your money with them.

Caitlin [00:27:26] So Sara and I wanted to do an episode about crypto for a really long time, but we want to find someone to talk to about it who isn't in the tank. Like, who's skeptical isn't like, so fiery against it, like I am per se. Although if you're out there and know a lot about it, get in touch. But we're looking for someone who really sees both sides. Sara obviously sees both sides, but this is not your specialty. This is something you're trying to learn about. And going to the conferences and showing up and reading the books. But if anybody listening knows somebody who isn't going to try to sell us anything but has like a nuanced understanding, we would love to talk to them.

Sara [00:28:12] Yeah. And especially if that person, like, has an idea about, appropriate allocations to something like this, like a new asset class. I think I read in a paper that was put out through the.

Caitlin [00:28:25] We won't know what it is. It doesn't matter.

Sara [00:28:27] It's through the CFA Institute, the Financial Analysts Institute. You can Google it. It looked at, you know, like the, the not very long history of Bitcoin, but it did a calculation and said that, hey, like, you can get a disproportionate benefit versus the risk of putting Bitcoin in your portfolio by having a 1 to 6% allocation to bitcoin in this case, which I thought was like very sober one 1 to 6%, right?

Caitlin [00:28:58] Oh, between 1% and 6% of I got it. Okay. Yeah. I mean assuming that's money, to me that just means like money you're willing to lose.

Sara [00:29:12] Yeah, yeah.

Caitlin [00:29:14] That you you will survive if you lose that money.

Sara [00:29:17] Exactly.

Caitlin [00:29:18] Okay, so then it begs the question, why do it at all? But I get it. Other people aren't as Vanilla as I am. They want they want to be on the leading edge and experiment with this stuff. I think that greed aspect is which of course, I completely identify with. I am not, you know, if somebody told me I could get if I didn't know you, it would be a lot easier to feel like I could get rich quick. You're a real buzzkill when it comes to the get rich quick. 24 year, I. Think it's like a reptile. Quick.

Caitlin [00:29:58] But that is where I like. That is also what makes me very nervous. Especially on something like women on the verge, where we're talking about women, how to, like, build a financial future and how to really make investments for your long term. And we're talking about how we're going to take care of ourselves when we're retired and all this stuff, so that, yeah, I makes me very nervous to not that people aren't responsible and can't think for themselves. And it's all just information we get to know about and then make choices. But how much to highlight or not highlight? Something like that on the fringes.

Sara [00:30:33] Bitcoin ETF has brought it in from the fringes though a little bit.

Caitlin [00:30:38] So that's the news. You can use that now that if you are crypto curious you can go into your Vanguard your Fidelity or Schwab account and look for which fund or just Google. What funds do they have that include crypto or Bitcoin.

Sara [00:30:51] Oh hold on Caitlin you're going to love this I can't you actually can't buy a Bitcoin ETF through Vanguard. They will not allow it.

Caitlin [00:31:01] Or so responsible. I mean, that's hard. They Vanguard's like.

Sara [00:31:07] They're like, nope, this is not a thing for our clients. We're not even going to allow it on our platform.

Caitlin [00:31:12] So paternalistic.

Sara [00:31:14] And I know.

Caitlin [00:31:15] Kind of.

Caitlin [00:31:16] How do you feel about that? They're like taking care of you there. Like, don't worry, Caitlyn.

Caitlin [00:31:19] Yeah, don't.

Caitlin [00:31:20] Worry about.

Caitlin [00:31:22] That. About that. What's crypto pros?

Caitlin [00:31:25] Well, it gives me information. I mean, what the information it gives me. Well, not because of Vanguard, but like that. I don't need that. Like that. You're okay. I think part of my anxiety has been like, oh, fuck. Something else I don't know about. And I'm probably missing out on. And this is going to be the difference between people that are financially successful in the long run and people that aren't. And because I'm so conservative and risk averse and scared of all this stuff, I'm going to be left out. So I think crypto, in addition to me just being skeptical about it because it really seems like a made up story about money that is bound to fail. Also, it activates anxiety for me because I think, what if that's the thing? And those are the people that are rich in my ambivalence or resistance to it will leave me out.

Sara [00:32:17] So and it's just all the guys and their lambos and their shiny suits.

Caitlin [00:32:21] And the lambo.

Sara [00:32:22] And the rest of us get left behind.

Sara [00:32:24] Yes.

Caitlin [00:32:25] So if Vanguard's.

Caitlin [00:32:27] Telling it.

Caitlin [00:32:28] Like it's just soothing, here we are again. Talking about how you can be soothing is like, no, you're fine. Like, that's like getting some other weird appetizer. Your entree is fine if that is what you actually need to fill you up and to, like, make a meal out of it. You don't need the weird amuse boosh appetizer. So that's sort of sit there, because behind all my skepticism, of course, is the worry that like, oh shit, what if I'm left behind?

Sara [00:32:58] Yeah. You got this.

Caitlin [00:33:00] I got this. Yeah. Boring. Sara. Just do nothing else but what we said from day one. And you'll be fine. Rich, even very slowly.

Sara [00:33:10] We're just still buying and holding. Just still holding.

Caitlin [00:33:15] Tick tick tick. Still holding.

Music transition by Bad Bad Hats

Sara Did you have a question about finance or investing? Send it to us in an email or voice memo on our website. Womenontheverge.com.

Caitlin Hey, we want our listeners to know that economic abuse can be subtle, but it's a serious form of control. Watch out for partners who limit your access to money. Sabotage your job or rack up debt in your name. If this sounds familiar, know you're not alone and there's help available. Please learn more at the hotline.org or call 800 799 safe.

Sara This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West, with music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

 Music outro by Devmo

Devmo I know the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold, the flick of the wrist it could turn a hot bitch cold, to get what you want in life girl you gotta be bold. Now Imma die rich, and I know...

Sara This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guarantee that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not be considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.