Season 2, Episode 10: Money Sisters

Using the Power of Female Friendship to Build Wealth (and Split the Check)

What do you get when two women combine forces to figure out finance, share the mental load and build wealth together?

Money sisters!! That’s what you get!

In this episode, longtime friends Emily and Kelly (who happens to be our co-producer) share their long history of making financial decisions small and large, and their deep, abiding love for the Splitwise app.

Most of us are used to the awkward dance of trying to figure out how to fairly split a restaurant meal or a girls’ trip, but what about buying a freaking house?? They tell us!

So many women face financial decisions on their own and it can be paralyzing and lonely. Emily and Kelly help us see a creative alternative that can open up our investing opportunities and turn our friendships into a financial partnership. Get yourself a money sister!!

Oh! And do you have a passive income story? A success? A failure? Tell us about it in a voice memo and e-mail it to: womenonthevergepodcast@gmail.com

Ask us your dumb investing and finance questions for Season 2 on our Ask Us page!

This episode was edited by our co-producer Kelly West. Music by Bad Bad Hats and Devmo.

Transcript for Season 2, Episode 10: Money Sisters

Caitlin Welcome to Women on the Verge of a Financial Breakthrough, a podcast where we're figuring out finance. One dumb question at a time. I'm the dummy. Caitlin Meredith, a coach and mediator based in the Bay Area.

Sara And I'm Sara Glakas. I'm an investor advisor and founder of Black Barn Financial and the Austin Women's Investing Group, which can be found on Meetup and Facebook.

Caitlin Before we start, do you know a woman who might be on the verge of a financial breakthrough? Will you text her a link to our show and maybe to other friends while you're at it? Also, please, if you can leave us a review. This helps other women on the verge find us and we read them and they make us happy. Cry. Okay. The most exciting thing, we are saying that now every time we have guests, but that's okay because we are super excited. But we have my friend, our friend, friend of the podcast and co-producer editor Kelly West on along with Emily, her her friend, my friend friend of the podcast, also Emily. All the things everybody. I wanted Kelly and Emily to come on the podcast because they're two friends that have like combined financial lives, like above and beyond, like splitting a check at dinner or going on a trip together. Like they've done some for real stuff in the finance world, and I just want to find out more about it. For the record, as usual, Sara has no idea what we'll be talking about.

Sara I just showed up. I don't know. Are you guys money, sisters? Am I getting that?

Caitlin I think you're going to be fascinated by this too. So I'm almost more excited about your questions than mine. But as usual, I'll just steamroll right over. Okay. I remember one of the first times that I had gone out to dinner with both of you, and you guys brought out an app very early on that was like, do did, did, do okay, I'll enter this that it was clear that you had a money system in your friendship that I was like included in for the evening because it was already a system that was going and I thought it was fascinating. And then from there you guys got much more intense with how you dealt with money. But can we just talk about that? Like, how did you guys go from this sort of like awkward give and take most friends have of like, oh, I'll pay this time or like, you got a beer? I did it. Like, how did it start that you guys came up with a system?

Emily That's actually a good question because I don't know if I remember where it started. I if I had to guess, it would have been coming out of traveling together, don't you think? Kelly?

Kelly I think that's probably right. I also don't remember at all what you're talking about is an app called Split Wise that we are both obsessed with and is an amazing app and split. Why I should sponsor the pod for sure. But that's no we. It's it's just it just makes dividing expenses really easy to use. I think we Emily and I traveled together quite a bit and traveling can be annoying to divide things up because there's just like a lot of tracking, like you're spending, you're sharing expenses almost every single day when you're on a trip. And so having an easy way to sort of track it where you don't have to like go through all your receipts. At the end of the day, I mean, maybe it sounds like it's too much that you're being like hyper vigilant about dividing it, but it actually, to me makes it easier than trying to like, keep track of in your mind, like, well, you bought an expensive dinner yesterday and like, I paid for the train on Thursday, so that kind of evens out. It's like split wise was just a way you enter every single thing down to the sense it divides it in half or divided by three or four. However many people are on the trip with you and then just evens it up so you don't have to think about it. It like takes it takes something off your plate.

Emily And you know what, Kelly? I think also when you just we just cannot say enough about split wise. But something else that's nice about split wise is you can start a trip or a group way ahead of time. And so I think especially it's good for travel because sometimes you have expenses that may be months before you do something and someone may pay for an entire Airbnb, which is a chunk of money and in split wise in a sense lets someone else continue to pay for expenses until maybe or even up. And you know, you can put big expenses, small expenses. It takes like the the personal nature of splitting money, which is where I think things can get weird with friends than money is, is some people make it very personal.

Caitlin Yeah, it's really awkward and it can be like on set. So it takes care of this part about like making it fairer because it's totally transparent. There's a record like you don't have to be worried. Like, did anybody remember I paid for that Uber from the airport? Like, it's all in there. But I'm curious, you guys knew this ahead of time. Like what your expectations were, what your budget might be in a trip, because that doesn't really take care of the part where one person's like five stars all the way and the other person is like, Let's get some bread from the supermarket and have a picnic. Was that something you guys worked out earlier or It just was a natural affinity and that's why you guys traveled well together?

Emily I think it helped that we both were pretty running, pretty lean in those moments because, I mean. Yeah, I think we were generally on the same page about travel. Travel budget, travel style. Like things like, you know, sometimes we would share a room or, you know, do things that to cut costs that I think we just had to be on the same page about.

Kelly Yeah, and that's like a chicken and egg thing I feel like where you, you figure out the people that you travel with based on being on the same page. Like I remember the first trip I ever took to Europe was with a friend of mine who had one never flown coach before. And when we were in Barcelona we spent like an hour walking around because she wouldn't eat at a restaurant that didn't have white tablecloths. And so like that was that was a tricky and that was the first time I'd really traveled, like internationally with not my family and I, who, you know, can also be difficult to travel with. But like.

Caitlin That's a different podcast. Kelly Just one tip. But. Equally important. But yeah.

Kelly So I think Emily and I were already on the same page about that, so that part wasn't as difficult.

Caitlin Sara I'm curious if this is like a new concept or. Revelatory or what? For you?

Sara Yeah. I mean, this is following in the. Revelatory category for me. I just had my actual sisters, not my money sisters, my actual sisters come to town and us trying to figure out like I have three sisters and we're always trying to split things up. And over the holidays it ended up being, you know, we had a family celebration and then people traveled and then people bought dinner for everybody. And there's still a spreadsheet out there somewhere that I have not put my expenses into. So I'm like, Man, this podcast is only I mean, it's a month too late for me, but will be so helpful going forward. And then I had another trip with some college friends of mine just this past weekend, and it was the same thing where, you know, if we could have been tracking everything from the beginning, it would have made things really easy. There wouldn't have to be like the CFO of the trip keeping track of stuff.

Kelly Yes, exactly. And yeah, it's like I feel like I have I've heard from many people who's like relationships that I've saved because I told them about Split was it's like I mean, it is just like an amazing app for, for doing that. And, and like Emily said, it takes the it takes a personal out of it It's just numbers and you just interim and then everybody can do it themselves. So yeah the idea of like a CFO of a trip because I never I'm not a micromanager like that, like I don't want to get into all that. I don't want to be in charge of it.

Emily And it's tricky because I think that often folks impression of split wise when they hear about it is that it is a micromanagement of stuff. But I think the reality that folks don't always. Either own or maybe they don't think it's going to be that big of a deal. But I think that people want to be generous. No one wants to say, you know, you owe me this much, you owe me that much. And I feel like the yeah, the nice thing is it's always does that for you. And no one builds up any kind of resentment over, you know.

Kelly Or anxiety, too. Right. Because like, I get, I have anxiety that I haven't paid enough sometimes. Like someone, if someone did pay for a big dinner and I'm like, oh yeah, like how to how do I make up for that? Like, are they what are they expecting from me? I mean, this is there yeah, an entire other podcast about like my own communication disorders. But it's there.

Caitlin Again, we only do have the one hour.

Sara I mean the follow up to that question is do you guys like in your system, is everything 5050? Or if someone has, you know, two cocktails and the other person is doing dry January, do you figure it out as you go? Do you set the rules in advance? Kind of what are the terms of the relationship as it like as it goes?

Emily Well, that's a good question. I mean, I think at this point, because we have been splitting finances for so long, I think I and in my mind, Kelly, I have an idea of what our philosophy or split is, which is that I think we normally we normally split pretty accurately because I because when you get away from that, then it starts to become like, oh, I did about 20. I think we split accurately if there's like a big a significant difference, if it's like pretty close, then we will just split, even if it's not. If it's like when.

Kelly You say accurately, you mean we split 5050. Most of the time we split 5050.

Emily Most of the time. If someone didn't have drinks, then I think we would account for that. Or if there was. Yeah, I have to say it's a significant difference. We would, we would acknowledge that in some way.

Kelly Yeah, I think that's right. And also because we split so many things. Some of it comes out in the wash. I think like, you know, if one person gets two drinks this time, someone might get two drinks next time. But yeah, I think, I think it also just comes from like we're comfortable talking about money and and that's that's probably part of it That is not that may be the harder part of this equation.

Sara Yeah.

Caitlin Why are you more aware of it?

Sara Why are you guys so comfortable talking about money? What do you think has kind of created that? What the fuck.

Caitlin Is wrong with you? Why didn't you have a podcast.

Sara That was to keep that shit secret?

Emily Hmm. That's an excellent question. I mean, I don't know if I know the answer to that. I mean, I think we.

Caitlin I just need to point out something. They have been friends since high school, so that is kindergarden.

Kelly Oh.

Caitlin Oh, excuse me. Correction, kindergarten. And Emily actually has a twin sister, so who also is part of that. So they have been each other's family in the best sort of chosen way, I think, for a very long time. So probably through that know each other better than anyone knows either of them. So there is a certain degree of like knowing each other. I'll just add that here. It's not like you guys just like met and a year later we're like, we're perfectly aligned. Like, yeah, they grew together in a certain way.

Kelly Yeah, that's true. I mean, Emily has a budgeting system that I have employed that I find very useful and like maybe in the process of, like working on that, we like talked about money a lot or like also realize that we sort of think about budgeting the same way, which then, you know, helped us think about how we split expenses the same way.

Emily Yeah, then once we got to talking about budgeting, I was like, yes, you know, because because not everyone gets so into talking about budgeting. And I feel like I really started like Kelly and I were just like 100% like, Oh my God,.

Kelly I love a budget.

Emily And that's about, yeah, what's working?

Emily It's not working. Like, let's get.

Kelly I've made budgets for other people. I'm into it. Yeah. Give, give me a Google spreadsheet. I will make. You a budget.

Emily Yeah. It's like it's so.

Caitlin Sara's idea of hell. Oh.

Kelly It's just. It's just numbers, you know? It's like there's nothing. Just put some numbers in there.

Caitlin I'm wondering if all these people that you've invited to be part of it in your different trips or at dinners, if you've gotten weird responses or if it's it's caused any problems.

Emily I think sometimes people. May not want to be as engaged in that process, but I think are willing to be engaged. Like, for instance, sometimes people don't want to take the time to put stuff in the app. Like, I'm thinking of some of our parents here or, you know, others who are. Have it helped by your partner? Is a healthier relationship with technology? Probably. But I mean, one nice thing that spotlights is you can enter things on behalf of another person. I do think, though, that when you think about using something like that, I do think that sometimes it kind of opens the door to have the kind of conversation that you might need to have beforehand where someone is like, Y'all f fly on this trip. Like I'm really cutting things close and need to just pay for the things that I'm ordering, like going low key financially because that's like the haps, you know what I mean? Because Split Ways is magical in how it deals with the costs. But to get the costs in there, like groups sometimes will still be like, Oh, let's just split this five or six ways. And I think you still have to have like an awkward conversation. I mean, the nice thing about at least with Kelly, is I think I would never hesitate to be like f y like on a low budget or if you were like, I'm on a low budget or.

Kelly I think that's right. I mean, it does still require the conversation. Again, plug for split wise. You know percentages if like someone you know, didn't pay as much. Like if you go to a hotel and one person stays for three nights and one person stays for two nights, there's a function for that. So you don't have to do the math. That's right. It's amazing. So so that part can be easily figured out. But yeah, like the dinner thing, which is, I mean, right, Like group dinners are a nightmare. I think like everyone can agree just for that reason that it's like, you know, that, that like if you're doing a single check at the end, there's always going to be someone who wants to go through an itemized the damn thing for 4 hours. And that's a nightmare in itself. Or yeah, it's going to be like, Well, let's split it all. But like somebody's got nine drinks and you're like, Come on. Like, you know.

Emily Or it ends up short after everyone has put in their contribution.

Kelly Always sure on who did it, who did it. And you can't know. I mean, you usually know, but like. You know, you usually know.

Sara Then like the person who doesn't ever tip like, oh, I just I don't think. It's so I'm not. I don't believe in that.

Kelly I mean, the nice thing now is I feel like it's so much easier. It used to be a deal to like, split tabs, you know, And now it's like you can just get your own tab or they'll, you know, they'll just calculate it right at the table. And so I feel like some of that messiness has been resolved, but it still just comes down to talking about it. And I think people are really uncomfortable talking about money because it has it means so much more than just the actual dollars and cents. And so it's like it you know, it just becomes a deal.

Caitlin But Kelly and Emily did not just stop at sharing, knowing how to share dinners or train cars. They did something even more crazy. Well, I know Sara. Edge of your seat. So we were out to dinner one night. It was like eight. I was really pregnant. I was pregnant enough. And so this is like nine years ago. And they're like, so, well, we're buying a house together. I was.

Sara Just about to say that something crazy like buy a house together.

Caitlin And cause I was like, Oh my God. Well, why? Because they both owned their individual houses, which at the time they lived in. And so it was an investment thing. It wasn't like we it was a way to use their money to invest. And, and I had all of the stereotypical like, oh, that's like, seems like a really bad idea of friends and money shouldn't mix. Like, this is dangerous. What are you crazy girls doing? And one of the first things they told me was they were going to a therapist to talk about it. Oh, my gosh. And to.

Kelly Yes, we did go to therapist.

Emily To each other.

Kelly To each other's therapy value, went to Emily's.

Caitlin Therapist with her, and Emily went to therapists. And there we're talking next level communication support, doing all of the things you're supposed to do so that they could make sure that their I'm as I'm putting words in your mouth, you'll get a chance. But like to ensure that the friendship was protected and that you were able to have honest conversations about how this would work or what your values were, or priorities or expectation. Did I get that right?

Caitlin That was the objective. Yes. I mean, I would say like living together like we did. We had a lot of like, communication stuff come. Up that I think we weren't anticipating.

Caitlin And that was before.

Kelly Like by this time we were buying the house. So we were like thinking ahead because we were buying it. It was an investment, but we were buying it with the intention of living in it as roommates for a few years and then renting it out later.

Emily Living together was, I think, more challenging than actually planning the money. Like buying the house itself was, I think, actually pretty easy. I mean, we I think we talked about how much we wanted to spend, how much money to put down. We did like some legal paperwork and stuff that the folks had recommended about, you know, sharing like a purchase like this because we didn't want to end up on Judge Judy. And and I.

Kelly Think I mean, we did we did want to end up on judges.

Emily On the same side. On the same side of Judge Judy. Yeah. I actually think the house part of the and then when we rented it, I think the the I think again all the financial parts were pretty simple. It was like living together, I think was hard because, you know, reference are boundaries and and personal communication podcast the.

Kelly Other podcast.

Emily The other.

Kelly The other podcast that we're we'll talk about Yeah, communication issues different just.

Emily Being better.

Kelly Yeah but. But the money stuff was super easy and we like set up a, like a joint checking account where and we had all of our bills like auto pay and you know, it's like we, we were on the same page about how to like the money stuff was never complicated.

Caitlin I'm curious if you're willing to talk about what things came up with a therapist, because I think it was so briefly like the the second you guys told me you were going to see a therapist together about it, I was like, Oh, they've got this. Like, I didn't have to be worried on your behalf anymore because there was going to be a grown up in the room who knew how to lead a conversation about something like this. And what I love about it is I feel like so many single women wouldn't have the budget to buy a house on their own. The prevailing message is don't mix money and your friends like that's a terrible idea and a huge risk. And who knows, one person or whatever, like there's all these risks. But also when we're talking about women building wealth and like meeting them where they're at, not having enough to buy a house, especially considering any of the markets we live in right now, that this is like an opportunity that we don't talk about very much because it's scary and nobody talks about like here, here's how to avoid the pitfalls. So I'm curious, those conversations with the therapist a like was that number one, You guys were like, let's buy a house together. But we cannot even, like, seriously go forward without going to a therapist. Like, how did you guys come up with that? As a most people talk to a mortgage broker, you know, like, yeah.

Emily It really was two parts. I think it was buying the house. What do we need to have in place to, I think, protect our friendships. But also, I mean, I think a part about money too, is, is thinking about if things go south, even though I think we're very lucky that all of these shared financial situations, I mean including travel, all the stuff like I don't think we've ever had a bad experience, but I think you have to plan as if things could. And so from that standpoint, we're like, what paper do we need to fill out? What decisions do we need to make? We need to plan for now, but we need to plan for when this one of us wants to end this. You know, like we really think that through before we're in it and make those plans. Kind of like how you're supposed to talk about stuff in a relationship before people are angry. But the therapists, I think we're almost more about the personal part of living together, which was it was healthy. It was kind of hopeful. I don't know. What do you think? Kelly It was like we probably could have gone on a recurring basis and it would have been, I know how.

Kelly In retrospect, yeah, because it was really just one visit to each therapist and it was like, interesting. But yeah, I don't know that it because we at that time we weren't like having any problems communicating and you know how it is. It's like you really need to like have I think more going on that you actually need to work on for that to be helpful. The best thing that I remember that came out of therapy was that I think it was my therapist was like, Well, maybe you guys should have like a safe word for, you know, when you're angry at each other or you're like, something's going on and you like, can't really verbalize it, but you, like, need the other person to understand that something's not right. And she was like, What would that safe word be? And we came up with Kayak because not that long before we had both gone on a joint kayaking trip with our respective boyfriends at the time. I'm no longer dating them. Yeah, I had to stop. Pull over and switch. It was two person kayaks with a switch and get into each other's kayak because we could not. Kayak. With the person we were dating. And that seemed like the most appropriate.

Sara That is so funny.

Emily It was a sign of many things many things. How can I.

Sara Follow up with a question on the plan that you all put together? So you're you're making this huge purchase that to maybe someone like me, because I would have had the same reaction that Caitlin did. Did you come up with a plan that the two of you agreed that you would try to stick to? Or did you come up with a plan and build in the ability to be flexible? And I think like around that, I mean, or like on that topic, I mean flexibility around how long the two of you would live in the house, how you would rent it out, how you would find the renters, what you would charge, and then like the most important one. Like, what if someone wants out? Did you have expectations going into it that it would be like this is the term of the deal and this is what we're going to try to stick to? Or did you try to build in layers of flexibility knowing that your lives would change over the course of this purchase?

Emily So it's funny because as you're asking that, I think that another thing that works well with Kelly and I interested on your feedback on this, Kelly, but is that in some ways we talk about money a lot, think about money a lot have done a lot of financial things together but are also like. Kind of lazy and and I would say. Not not that type A Like in some ways I feel like we we try to prepare as best as we can, but then also have really jumped into a lot of financial situations. I think, you know, like. Let's see, I mean, I think what I remember is that the the paperwork that we filled out there was there was some clauses and there was like there's like, I can't remember.

Kelly I think it was kind of like a joint operating agreement maybe or something like that. It was something that like your business partners sign. I mean, that basically says, like, this is what we agreed to and this is like what we'll do if something, you know, if we disagree.

Emily And and to your point here, it's like that that built in, I think, the kind of flexibility we needed because I think typically. We might make a plan, but it's generally a fairly like macro level plant. Like, wouldn't you say, Kelly? And that's I mean, that's also the thing that we both bonded about with budgeting is that neither of us likes a hardcore granular budget because it for just both of our spending styles, it's too difficult to keep up with. Mm hmm. But so that document, I think, built in the flexibility about what happens if someone wants to sell the other person, doesn't like how you split things, etc.. And then we kind of just we kind of just want with it. I mean, I think we I remember we talked about like, oh, yeah, we're thinking we might live here like 2 to 3 years. We have like a rough timeline.

Kelly But then it was like retirement was what we set. Like we would keep it as an investment, you know, for retirement, but we didn't. Yeah, it wasn't like, we'll sell it in 15 years or we'll sell it when the mortgage is paid down. At this rate, like we it really wasn't that thought through. And we actually I mean, we ended up selling it last year because the market exploded and we doubled our money in four years. And so we were like, time to get out.

Emily And we did, even through the course of owning the house, like we made a couple of decisions to like refinance and we made a couple, you know, like I think we just approached it where it was like, what's the big idea? And then as things came up, we just talked about it and, and it's like we just all we do is start, I think, saying, like, here's here's what I think, here's what I think, and then just work our way towards a decision. I mean, luckily, I think neither of us is, is often like hard tied to like one particular outcome. I don't know. What do you think, Kelly like?

Kelly Yeah, I think I think that's right because we did I mean, we, we were always having to make decisions about that house like when it, when it was being rented, there were like repairs and like, you know, I mean, just, you know, you know how it is like when you own a home and there's just like stuff breaks all the time and, you know, so it's just like I think we were always having to have those conversations and there's no way we could have anticipated all of it. And like actually refinancing the house in some ways maybe wasn't the best decision in retrospect because like, we we could have cash flowed it as a rental better if we hadn't done that. But we didn't know that till later. And, you know, so but it was at the time it felt right.

Emily Well, I think we also don't look backwards often with these shared financial things, like if something could have been a better deal. I think more like that helps where we're on the same page, like with like, well, that's what it was like.

Sara Yeah, I mean, we.

Emily Did it.

Emily Right, Right.

Emily That's right. Which is helpful. I mean, yeah.

Sara And I wonder if that's like the most important thing is do you have two people who are kind of continuously looking forward, Right. And not spending a bunch of time rehashing like could a what a should a in the in the past. Right. Like that seems like it's very constructive when it comes to having a joint venture with someone moving forward. But you're either always like nit picking the decisions together or you're both moving forward together knowing like, of course, like we can't make this the most optimal investment decision at all times. We're living in the real world and you can't know everything.

Caitlin I'm curious that decision too, because you both, let's say you each put in. I have no idea the numbers. Let's say you each put in $30,000 or 20, whatever it was. I think it was 20.

Emily Yeah.

Caitlin You could have put that in index funds individually, for instance, something that has come up once or twice on this podcast and like, done your separate retirement plans. In this case, you both had your own houses already. So it wasn't like it wasn't a situation where this was your only chance to get in the housing market, but you guys chose to do it as friends to combine. Was that a financial decision, like we can make more money off of real estate in Austin right now than we would in a401k? Or was it like, we're friends? This feels like a lifetime friendship. Like, why not invest together?

Kelly Good question. I mean, it definitely was a financial decision in the sense that neither one of us could have afforded that house like by ourselves, I think. Or it would have been a struggle.

Emily Neither of us had enough cash. I think the housing market had just reached a point where it to buy to be able to put 20% down for something. It was more cash than either of us, I think, wanted to like, tie up in the house.

Kelly Yeah. In fact, I had to take a loan from my 401K in one case there. Don't tell me if that was a bad idea.

Sara I don't care at all.

Caitlin Your focus now if you live in the now. It didn't work.

Emily Out. It worked out.

Emily It did. It didn't work out. Yeah. So it's like it would have been too much to have to do by ourselves, I think.

Emily I wouldn't have bought a house with anyone else, I don't think. I mean, so. No, it wasn't the the impetus, but that was, I think, certainly a condition of buying the house.

Sara And she did. It seemed like it would be fun. Like was was like a fun project part of it.

Emily I don't know if that was part of the.

Caitlin Tepid response.

Emily Because I think we both had. We both had done a lot of work on our homes at that point. And we weren't looking for like a fixer upper, but we knew that realistically we were going to need to buy something that was not, you know, like we looked at some cute, really cute houses that were a lot of money. We looked on the east side of Austin, which already then was like very, very expensive. And we had we talked about it. We were like, we can afford this loan. But but then, you know, I think we had acknowledged to that process a lot, like what gives us a lot of anxiety about some of these decisions are like, well, it can like can we be happy with.

Kelly Yeah and having a big mortgage like scared both of us for sure. And so that I mean, that was like a tension point of like the house we wanted and the house that we wanted to pay for were different houses. And. And I think there were lots of times when we would like walk in a house and be like, we love it and then have to, you know, settle down and be like, no, this is you know, this is not what we're looking for. Like, we're looking for a rental, but also looking for a rental that you can live in. You know, it's just like it was a little too many considerations in some ways.

Sara But I mean, how that you didn't wind each other up, but you know how some pairs of people, if you can find each other up like, oh, yeah, why don't we just we can we just go for it, you know, go for it. Yeah. Yeah. But you were like, you know, pump the brakes. I like you both.

Kelly We, like, don't even play the slot machines. We're not, you know, people, like. Too much or too much risk.

Emily I think it's good if one of us gets wound up. You. Well, sometimes we will find each other out, and then just we'll spend a bunch of money on, like, a trip or something. But I. But I feel like. I feel like typically, if one of us was, like, very excited about a house, the other one would be like, Well. I am worried about these things and and like I know that certainly for myself, I sometimes can, you know, be like we can make it work. Like, here's what we could do and Kelly will be like. Here's what I'm thinking. And I'm like, Oh, cold water on the wild one.

Caitlin And deciding to sell like the Austin market has been bananas. It's cooled down a little bit, but like, that would have been the time to sell. And you guys were watching the numbers. I'm just as someone who owns a house and I'm like, How did you decide the month? How did you decide like now, Like even if it goes up, we're okay? Or like, ooh, it might be about to go down. Like how or how did you together decide It's it's time.

Kelly Anxiety helped us decide that. We were renting it out. And I think rent rental property is not passive income the way that like it sold as. You know.

Sara Kelly think you know people like I want passive income I'm like then why are you taking a second or rent out by the rental property?

Emily Yeah, yeah.

Kelly I mean, we didn't really sell at the right time in some ways. I mean, the market had already like cooled a fair amount by the time we sold. And we talked to a financial planner and had him run the numbers and tell us how much we were going to have to pay in capital gains tax and all that stuff, because that was just all like an imaginary number that I had no idea how to calculate. And so sort of seeing that all in real life and be like, you know what, this seems like a good choice and like, it'll be less stressful and let's do that.

Emily That was actually the decision point for me about selling the house is it was so useful because the planner that we worked with, Yeah. Showed us like, here's what everything will cost. If you sell it for these different price points, it'll cost this much in tax, etc., etc.. And then we did a budget of how much we thought we might spend for, you know, like just getting the house ready, etc.. But then also saying if you sold it for this much and made this much profit and then invested that like this, what you'd end up with versus like the value of a house for another 30 years and then it was like there was, it was no contest. It it just was like, oh, we could be done with the stress and anxiety and it would actually be a better financial situation.

Kelly Yeah, it's funny too, though, because actually I've had fun. I mean, the house that I owned before we bought this one, I still own and I still rent and those tenants are great and I never they never call me and that's awesome. But they, like I have had financial planners tell me for years that I should sell that property and invest in the stock market. And I like I don't make the financial decision because I make like an emotional decision about it, which is partly that I lived in that house a long time. I feel attached to it and also that I'll never be able to buy property in Austin again. So I sort of feel like I have to hold on to it. But, you know, I'm just saying I don't always make like entirely financial decisions, but I think in that case I was motivated.

Sara Yeah, I mean, but how smart to have somewhat run the numbers. I was just talking. I mean, I talk about this all the time with people, this idea that sometimes it feels like a financial decision is unknowable. Right? But really, a lot of times you can put numbers to a decision and look at them. That doesn't mean you're going to use just the numbers to make the decision. But whether you're going to sell a house or change jobs or take some time off or whatever it is, it's like, Oh, well, how could I know whether or not that might be a good or bad decision? Like a financial.

Caitlin Feels like jumping off a cliff.

Sara Yeah, like a financial planners job is to put some numbers. I mean, everybody's best guess, but your best guess numbers to that decision and so that you can see whether or not you're willing to take the risk one way or another. Yeah.

Kelly And I think that goes back to I mean, just like how Emily and I have the same philosophy about this stuff is like it is just a numbers game. And when you can think about it that way and not just be attached to, you know, to other aspects of it, it's actually much easier to make the decision because you can forget about the other stuff and just be like, okay, it's like column A has this many dollars and column B has this mini. I pick the bigger.

Emily One and knowing two, I think for it like especially if we just look forward like I think knowing that the, you know, like who could have predicted a global pandemic etc., you know, like shit, well stuff is always going to happen. Sorry, sorry. Podcast.

Caitlin It's a swearing podcast.

Sara Yeah, we've already, we've.

Emily We've already started the sale. That was always going to happen and it's, it's so weird. That's what I think is so. Interesting about money is that you just really can make the best decisions you can with the information you have in the moment. And it's it is like both, you know, hard numbers and emotion, but it's like I think some of these things that we have done together financially, I may not have made those decisions on my own. It helped me actually to have almost like a financial partner to be able to talk these things through and to say, is it a good time? And it's like us not being like romantically involved like that. Our only connection, I think, is being friends. But but it was kind of a good dynamic to say like, is this a good decision? What are our fears? What are our anxieties, what is the pros? What's the cons like?

Kelly That's true. I would have I would have talked it through with you anyway if it was just my house, because I would have been like, Oh my God, what am I doing? But yeah, like having that other person who was equally invested in it and to like.

Caitlin Literally.

Sara Just like his. Papers had come to an. Agreement.

Caitlin That makes so much sense to me. And I think that is what is so hard about especially being a single woman trying to make big financial, take big financial risk, make big financial decisions, is not having a thought partner who is equally invested in who can like talk you through the normal ups and downs or take turns, one person being optimistic, the other person being worried, and that that buffer is another a way to get through barriers that you might not be able to get to on your own. I know that has definitely been my experience. And so I think this idea of the money sisters, obviously personality dependent, history dependent like you guys were in a unique situation where your friendship had been tested over a lifetime. And so it's not something to jump, jump into blindly, but that like it could open the doors for so many women to get into bigger financials, things that would have I mean, you doubled your money on a house investment by doing it and that, like more women could do that if friendships were talked about in the same way that a marriage was as an opportunity for like a little joint business that's there to build some wealth.

Emily Get you a money, sister?

Sara Yeah.

Kelly Let's start an App.

Kelly By an offshoot of split wise.

Kelly People that have your same split.

Kelly Money Sisters. You hear that split up and we've not made that clear sign. So.

Sara I mean, I think that that's exactly right, Caitlin. I mean, I think, you know, you always hear about how like if you have if you have a spouse, right, that you have to make financial decisions with having two people bringing their resources to decisions leads to better outcomes in that people who are married tend to end up with higher net worths than people who aren't. Right. But if you can think about. A non romantic relationship with someone in the same way. Mean, that is a really interesting way to just kind of leverage the power of more money. I mean, like you guys said, like to two people, bringing the down payment means you can make a bigger down payment, maybe buy a higher quality house, qualify for a bigger and better mortgage, and everybody's better off as long as everybody's on the same page. But, you know, like Caitlyn, I, I think I always thought of that as a really risky venture when, I mean, I'm all about being in the stock market where it's like 25% decline, whatever. We just work through it, right? Where it's like any or most of the decisions that you all would have come up with that were really risky, which is really kind of one person walking away and leaving the other person holding the bag or one person refusing to sell and the other one had to. If you acknowledge those risks and are willing to take them ahead of time, it's really similar that risk reward tradeoff. And it might be a really good option for some people.

Caitlin And the plot thickens.

Sara Oh, no. Is this not even it?

Caitlin No, because they're also actively planning on a retirement community together, creating something, buying property together, along with Emily's sister and that like throwing in their lots together. Pay attention. Watch this space for Kelly's podcast on this matter, because it's I think it's a fascinating thing for friend communities to decide to retire together and combine resources so that they get all the things that they want but are with their friends and not isolate it. Like to build that an intentional retirement community at whatever scale you're interested in and throwing your resources in to be able to buy property and create what you all want or buy your adjoining condos, whatever it may be. But watch for the podcast. TBD, TBD. But what I like, I feel I felt this so much in the pandemic that those of us that don't have partners, we're like your lot in life is to sit alone in your house. I mean, I have a child, but like, it really showed what the American dream is, and that is living alone or living with your romantic partner or, you know, and people that have different generations of their family living with them, but that we can actively challenge that and create living situations that are built on community, that, yes, entwined friendship and money, given the safeguards going to an attorney, a therapist or whatever, but that a value add not just for the wealth putting wealth together, but for like our quality of life, for making big decisions together for all sorts of things that are really important. And then the final one is the cemetery plot.

Sara So wait, so is there a story about the retirement community? Is this something that's being actively pursued? And did you buy the land or, you know, hire the architect?

Kelly We have we have a. We have a board, anything. It's a it is something we've talked about it actually for a long time. And just this last year, we decided to start having like Emily and her sister and I have been having monthly Zoom meetings where we just try to like talk through ideas. We've been doing some research. We took a very strange nonviolent communication class together.

Emily It felt like the beginnings of joining a cult, and we all decided that we weren't 100% opposed.

Caitlin We'll just leave it there. Yeah. What happened?

Kelly But no, because I because I think the reality is, is like we all bought property when property was affordable and, you know, and now, like, everywhere is very expensive. And also it's like looking at climate change, like where's the location for it? There's there's like so many considerations when you have. It's funny because it's like living in Austin. You're like, I live in Austin, I need a house in Austin and you buy a house in Austin and then it's like, Oh, I could live anywhere with, you know, my two closest friends. And then you're like, too many decisions. I don't know. It's like, yes, we've just been talking it out, but it's been really interesting and we've learned a lot about tiny houses and I don't know different things.

Caitlin The real question is if you have a split wise yet, is there a retirement community split wise yet?

Kelly Oh, we definitely would have a split was. Yeah.

Caitlin But not yet.

Kelly Not yet. No we haven't. We have the nothing has been entered yet.

Emily So all talking and thinking so far.

Kelly Yeah. Yeah, yeah that's right.

Caitlin Am I the first person to call you guys out as money sisters and being like, by the way, Sara thought of that term. Not that any of us, but am I the first person to be like, this is different? Y'all are doing something in your friendship That is not that I haven't seen before and that, like I admire and I think it should be a model.

Kelly You're certainly the first person to interview us on a podcast.

Emily I mean I think Kelly and I for a long time have referred to ourselves as platonic life partners, which I think started because honestly, our financial our friendship, of course, has been ongoing for a long time. But I think our financial relationship, like I had a shared bank account with Kelley through multiple relationships, you know, I mean, I haven't had a shared bank account probably with almost anyone that I have dated.

Kelly I currently live with my partner and we don't have a shared bank account, very minimal. We have a shared real estate empire. That's what we that's what our shared bank account was called was real estate empire. And it was embarrassing when we went to the bank because they could see that.

Emily And sometimes we had to say which account like when you that.

Kelly They like which which account do you want to put it in. And you'd be like real estate empire please.

Caitlin What is that. Is that balance still $47.

Kelly Okay, just checking.

Emily But, but yeah, I mean, I think we at least have recognized that it is like a partnership of a kind, don't you think? Kelly? Yeah.

Kelly I sometimes people, I think, are a little surprised. They're like, Oh, you bought it together. Like, how did that you know, people will say some of the same things you've said, Caitlyn Like, was isn't that weren't you worried that, like, you know, you wouldn't be friends anymore? Like, what would happen? I've I've heard that from people, but I think also people who know us like know how long we've been friends and and have probably been involved in a split was situation.

Kelly Where they know what they're in for what.

Emily Splitwise stories that's. Another spin off for this group.

Kelly That is I guess I would definitely listen.

Caitlin To Oh my God it could be true.

Emily Though about like folks telling both successful and unsuccessful. Successful.

Kelly That's a great idea.

Caitlin So, Sara, have we blown your mind?

Sara I mean, this is so interesting and helpful. I mean, I'm sure not just for me, for a whole bunch of people just to see like what the different possibilities are, right? It's definitely going to change the way my sisters and I handle. It trips and, you know, events and things like that in our family. And, you know, the friends that I travel with, I mean, I feel like it is a game changer in that way. And even more so, like I have clients who have talked about, you know, who are single women, especially, who are like, you know, I don't have kids. I don't want to rely on nieces and nephews. I want them in my life, but I want to have a community around me of like minded people, you know, that's either for companionship or financial reasons, where we can be on the same page and and kind of be a part of this retirement community. So I think that that's really cool to just kind of explore what the possibilities are and think outside the box so we don't all have to be following like rules of thumb, right? That there are ways to be creative with the way that you think about solving problems. Oh, my God. You guys, there's an ice cream truck parked outside my house. Can you hear it?

Caitlin We always ask our guests or ourselves, what's one thing a woman on the verge of a financial breakthrough could do in this space? And I think that the answer is clear. Splitwise.

Emily And talk to your friends.

Kelly Yeah, that's right.

Emily I think. Talk to your friends about money and see who's on the same page, because there may be opportunities that you haven't thought about that are available to you.

Kelly I find that the more I'm open about money than the more people feel comfortable being open about money. And so it's like you can if you can feel comfortable sort of taking that first step, then, you know, sometimes they reciprocate. So.

Caitlin Yes, I. I think that's good advice. I just, you know, How old was I? I was so. Old when this. You know, obviously, apps have changed a lot and a lot of technology has really added to this. But you go from a time where everyone's super poor and so, like, we're all getting a burrito, like we will split a pizza. There's no questions. When you have no money, there's no there's nothing to deal with diplomatically. But then in the course of our careers, you know, our status can go up and down and change in relative to our friends or we're making new friends who come from a different status in this stuff, but can become very awkward and hard to. And so just the frontloading of it, I think is such a relief and makes me wish I had gone back to do some of those front loaded conversations too, just because it is also interesting. And then you develop partnerships. I think on our first episode we talked about like garage money about, yeah, who you can talk about learning about the stock market with or you know, just like ponder this stuff together because each of us doing it on our own is lonely, intimidating, and we'll be just more likely not to deal with any of it.

Emily Yeah, yeah. You get stuck in your own perspective and it's nice to know what other people are thinking or doing. You know? It's like none of us are financial geniuses. While you ladies might be superheroes. Yeah, Sara is a financial debt. Let me. Amend the.

Kelly Special episode. Three Dummies on one expert.

Emily Yeah, three. You have three dummies here today.

Sara Stop it. I'm thinking about going to get getting a money, sister.

Caitlin One for you and a money sister for you and a money sister for you. Thank you guys for doing this. And thank you in advance for Kelly for editing her own voice and her own conversation.

Kelly I mean, I only agreed to do this because I knew I could cut out all the stupid. Shit that so.

Music transition by Bad Bad Hats

Caitlin Hey, before we go, thank you so much to Kelly West, who co-produced and edited this episode.

Music transition by Bad Bad Hats

Sara If your partner is making you ask for money, giving you an allowance are not letting you know about family income. This could be economic abuse.

Sara Learn more at thehotline.org, or call one 800 799 safe.

Music outro by Devmo

Devmo I know the first thing you notice is that I'm covered in gold, the flick of the wrist it could turn a hot bitch cold, to get what you want in life girl you gotta be bold. Now Imma die rich, and I know...

Sara This podcast contains general information that is not suitable for everyone. The information contained herein should not be construed as personalized investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. There is no guarantee that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast will come to pass. Investing in the stock market involves gains and losses and may not be suitable for all investors. Information presented herein is subject to change without notice and should not be considered as a solicitation to buy or sell any security.